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1. Laurie Pawlik-Kienlen says:

   October 22, 2009 at 8:17 am

   Hi Lee,

   Thanks for asking about me! I’ve actually just returned from three weeks in Europe, and am still catching up on sleep and work

   I LOVED what you told your counselor — it’s not your job to keep your husband in line. When I first read the bit about coaching your hubby so he doesn’t fall into his “old ways”, I winced. He’s not an 8 year old child that you have to train! So I was so proud and pleased to hear that you disagreed with your counselor then and there; that can be a very difficult thing to do. That you did it not only shows self-respect and insight, it’s also a testimony to the relationship you have with your counselor. It’s very healthy and liberating to be able to disagree with someone “in authority.”

   It may take practice for your husband to start recognizing when he’s flirting WHILE he’s flirting. I find it similar to a compulsion or an addiction to food, gambling, shopping, etc: you just get swept up in the temptation or compulsion, and don’t stop to think of the consequences. But over time, you can train yourself to stop the behavior before it even starts.

   Again, that’s not your job! It’s your husband’s.

   And regarding your “aha” moment — that’s great! It’s not about the other women; it’s about your husband’s need to prove he’s attractive, lovable, desirable. And maybe it doesn’t even matter why he has that need…maybe what matters is that it’s destructive to your marriage, and he has the power to stop flirting. It’s a habit that can be broken. Cognitive-behavioral therapy has the stance that behaviors can be changed and the reasons for those behaviors aren’t as important. Freudian therapy or psychoanalysis works on identifying the reasons for behavior; knowing reasons can help change behaviors. I’m more into the cognitive-behavioral stuff myself.

   Anyway, it’s wonderful that you’re separating yourself from your husband’s problem. You are still a valuable, lovable, smart, accomplished, beautiful, and desirable woman — even if your husband has this need to be emotionally unfaithful! His actions do not change who you are. And, who you are won’t change his actions. That’s all his baby.

   I hope your ballroom dancing class was fun — what a great idea!

   Thanks for sharing your journey here, Lee. You’re growing and learning so much about yourself…maybe this will be one of those things that actually change your life for the better.

   Talk soon,
   Laurie
2. Lee says:

   October 21, 2009 at 2:20 pm

   Hi Laurie,
   Random thoughts here:

   For the last several months I have been beating myself up over the women that my husband has had emotional infidelities with or flirted with. Sometimes I compared myself with them, they were younger than me for the most part, but some were not. In retrospect, there was a common denominator in all of these interactions and I thought that this denominator was loosely threaded through the women. It is not. The common denominator is my husbands craving to have his particular emotional needs fulfilled and his ability to connect with women who are willing to provide that need.

   This is a liberating thought for me. A big aha if you will. And probably a thought that was all too obvious to you, Laurie. I guess I had to discover this on my own.

   He needs to discover what this need is and only then will he be able to understand how to avoid his flirtatious or emotional emails.
   And I don’t think he is in touch with that yet.

   But we are on the road to wellness. Tonight we are going to a ballroom dancing class to learn something new together and to give us another reason to interact more intimately at social functions. I am delighted that he has agreed to do this.

   To Kel, my heart hurts for you. Discovering infidelity has to be one of the hardest thngs to endure. If he doesn’t want counseling, make sure you get it. You deserve it, you need to talk to a third party and not someone in your family or someone at work… If he needs help and doesn’t get it, you can still move on and be whole and have a wonderful life.

   Keep in touch, I would like to know how you are.

   Lee
3. Lee says:

   October 20, 2009 at 2:04 pm

   Hi Laurie,
   Well, our couples counseling session post golf cart girl fiasco took place a yesterday and it went okay.

   What was interesting was that the counselor told me that I should help my husband by coaching him everytime I see him slipping into his old ways. Apparently he has an “Achilles heel” aka loves flirting with pretty women who are gregarious and outgoing at the expense of his marriage. I told him that keeping my husband in line was not my job. I would let him know that I was unhappy by leaving the situation and not giving silent approval by staying around and watching him go through his song and dance.

   He looked at me and said, …” I like that. That is certainly a clear message that you are unhappy with his behavior and it removes you from being a particpant.”

   In followup discussions at home, I have told my husband that I don’t care for how he talks to other women from his office either and he admitted that he flirted at work too. I always know when he is talking to a female by the timber of his vioce and vocal inflections. And i find it so annoying.

   Why he does this, who knows. It certainly must fulfill some need. And after I mention an incident he can clearly see what he is doing but not during an event so that he can take a detour.

   The best thing I can say about all of this is that we are working on our relationship together. We are both willing to do what is necessary to have a good life. But sometimes I surely get frustrated.

   But in the end, its all good.
4. Laurie Pawlik-Kienlen says:

   October 18, 2009 at 6:53 am

   Kel,

   I’m so sorry that your marriage has taken this turn. It’s a very difficult place to be — the thought of losing your husband is devastating.

   One thing to remember is that he’s dealing with his own issues; the fact that he’s interested in a 19 year old says that it’s not necessarily your marriage that wasn’t working…so, try not to take it too personally. I don’t know why you feel you pushed things this way, but it’s important to remember that no matter how great we are as spouses, our partners sometimes get involved with other people.

   I wish you all the best, and welcome you back anytime you need support or to vent. Also — you might consider getting individual counseling even if he’s not into couples thereapy, as it may help you cope with whatever comes next.

   Laurie
5. Kel says:

   October 17, 2009 at 2:29 am

   My husband and I have been married for a little over 2 years. During the course of our dating and marriage, he never saw the need for friends, and I accepted that. Until he met this girl at work. He’s 32 going on 33 and she’s 19. It started off funny enough. He’d sometimes chat with her on MSN messenger about trivial things and never had a problem with me looking over his shoulder and laughing at some of the things she said. Then he told me he was going to the movies with her to see Final Destination. After he let it slip that she doesn’t even like horror movies. That made me pause. Why would you go see a scary movie with someone if you don’t even LIKE scary movies? I started getting a strange vibe from it. One night, I was in bed, feeling sick and she sent him an email via Facebook that she needed to talk to him on MSN. Before I knew it, he was sitting next to me on the bed at 10:30 asking me if I minded him going out to have a coffee and chat with her that same night! I was a little stunned, but also sick, and asked him “Would it matter if I said I cared and that I wanted you to stay home?” and he said he would stay if I wanted him to… but the look on his face made me think to myself “You’re being ridiculous. It’s coffee and a talk.” Well, it wasn’t. She picked him up here at our home at 11 pm and then took him to the hub of college student partying and drunkenness- Downtown. They talked and walked and he finally came back home at 2:30 in the morning. Talk about devastating. Then he started getting more secretive. When I was around he would minimize the chat window, if he heard my footsteps coming, he would stop typing and close the window, or ignore the flashing light of a new instant message until he thought I wasn’t paying attention or I left the room. From then on, I wanted to talk to her myself and I finally did. He got so angry when I told him I contacted her and asked to meet her for coffee. Not angry because I contacted her, but angry because she left him an email via Facebook again, saying that the “wife encounters” were getting to her and it would be best if she would back off. Her saying she would back off made him ridiculously angry. During my talk to her, I told her that there are certain boundaries that don’t get crossed… lines that don’t get toed. All for naught.
   Recently I found a message log between the two of them. She said she was drunk and then proceeded to talk about all of the things she wanted to do to my husband. And he didn’t discourage it! Then she tried the “I feel like I’m just a girl who is a friend to you… nothing significant” and he took the bait. When she asked “do you have feelings for me?” my heart started beating triple. His answer ripped at it: “There’s something there, but I don’t know if that’s good or bad”.
   We’ve been talking and yesterday we were faced with the very real possibility that a divorce is imminent. I don’t want to lose my husband and I feel like I’ve pushed things this way, guilty, betrayed, hurt. He says that we can work on things one day at a time and see what happens, but in my heart of hearts, I know he’s made his decision and it hurts me so badly. I wish with everything in me that he had been strong enough to not even go that route with her, that he had been strong enough to tell her that the conversation was inappropriate and that he was flattered that she felt that way, but he was married and she was *supposedly* engaged and that if she couldn’t control her impulse to say things like that then maybe they didn’t need to be friends. But he wasn’t. And he seems to refuse to acknowledge his role in things. He refuses to see someone to talk to, saying he doesn’t believe in therapy and counseling… but I believe he needs it as much as I do.
6. wendell says:

   October 2, 2009 at 7:09 am

   What do you think of this family I’m married in to?
   Each man in this family gets a kick from publicly degrading their wife.Each explains in graphic detail about their sex lives and finds it funny to discuss this nature in the pub.None of the wives have ever degraded their husbands. I’m on the brink of exposing all of them to their mother at a reunion in Nov.I plan to go round the table individually and see if their mother is amused.or maybe embarrassed at the actions of her family.Of cause I’ll be the troublemaker, for bring it up.I’ve personally had enough and feel this may be the ending point for me.They are all alcoholics and have inferiority complexes.One terrorizes and bullies his wife and elder daughter. The other goes with prostitutes and mine wonders why I don’t like sex with him.The bully took it upon himself to bully my daughter, recently. Out of my presence I must add. My husband is aware of this incident and has done nothing to protect her I plan to challenge him on this, and ask him why he felt the need to this. My husband has no self-respect for himself, for our daughter or me. He would never stick up for us, against him the bully brother.I’m very protective of my daughter and will not tolerate anyone ridiculing her to gain self satisfaction for their own inferiority complex.The sister is also an alcoholic and has never moved out of the teenage stage she’s 50.and spiteful to the core and sticks up for her abnormal brothers.How do I move on from all this vileness? Why do I put up with it.? ‘m finacially sound,I look after myself and enjoy other peoples company.I’m not a depressive person.I do however speak my mind,People find this offensive and don’t know how to take me.I’m not usually a doormat. Why do I let this lot do this to me?
   If you remeber I already sent a message about my husband. He’s the one that stares at other women continually.He has no explaination as why he does this.One woman in particullar decided to take him up on his challange and paraded herself in a bikini in front of him.All to mop her balcony and found the need to bend over at intervals.He says I’m mad for insinuating he fancies her and she him.He’s disturbed I don’t speak to her to her anymore and thinks I should.He say’s he’s not a man anymore for bowing to my needs by ignoring her now like me.Incidently he always brings this subject up when he’s drunk which is most of the time.
7. Laurie Pawlik-Kienlen says:

   September 27, 2009 at 9:57 am

   Thanks for responding, Audrey, Gini, and Lee! I really appreciate your thoughts about the whole law of attraction idea in relation to emotional cheating — and I’m glad nobody thought I was saying that we can cause partners to be unfaithful.

   Not knowing your hubby was cheating has to be one of the hardest things to get past. It must take a long time to rebuild that trust and intimacy…and that process is full of stops and starts, ups and downs.

   I think all couples should read real life stories about how destructive even “harmless” flirtations and emotional intimacy can be, so they’re aware of the pitfalls! Getting a real taste of the damage that could result might stop people from playing in places they don’t belong.

   Anyway, thanks again for sharing here.

   Laurie
8. Lee says:

   September 25, 2009 at 3:04 pm

   Hi Laurie,
   Well, time for my two cents here.
   I had no idea whatsoever that my husband had an online relationship, let alone one that spanned 4 years! And one that started immediately before and after our marriage.

   I was stunned by the revelation. It took my breath away. And I looked at this man who was so good to me, like he was a stranger.

   I really don’t think that I contributed to the emotional infidelity or his recent flirtations. Yes I am sensitive due to the recent infidelities but I think this is human nature.

   We had what I thought was a really whole relationship on all levels. I am not clingy, a whiner, I am a strong professional woman who was single for several years before I married. I always felt that I was better alone than with the wrong man.

   When my husband and I reconciled this summer I truly believed he would make an effort. When confronted with this last flirtation, he was also stunned by the effect it had on me! “There was nothing sexual here, Lee. I was just enjoying myself and being friendly. This is not like writing emails or being emotionally unfaithful.”

   We are slowly learning how to get along, what upsets the other party and how to be happy together. And as you said, I am doing the best I can.

   Lee
9. Gini Grey says:

   September 25, 2009 at 2:27 pm

   I’ve been reading some of the responses on this topic and find the self-fulling prophecy and law of attraction component interesting as both play a factor in most life situations. I’ve had my own past personal experience in this area of having a partner that cheats emotionally and have worked with clients who’ve experienced this as well.

   In terms of self-fulling prophecy, I’m not sure how that fits in regarding other’s behaviors except that if we expect the same behavior to happen and we don’t change our own boundaries, then it is likely to happen again. With law of attraction, I think we attratct partners into our life who are a match for us on some level. It may be that they match us with similar values etc. or it may be a deeper match where they carry out a behavior that is similar to a parent or someone we were close to growing up.

   So for example, if our father cheated on our mother, we may unconsciouly choose a partner that cheats on us. Or if we were betrayed somehow by someone important growing up, we may re-experience this again and again, until we release the charge from the past painful experience and then no longer create the same scenarios in our life.

   Then we can go even deeper to a soul level, where we are trying to learn certain things in life – like self-esteem, boundaries or perhaps forgiveness so we partner with someone who creates a situation for us to learn, grow and heal from this situation. We only see this of course if we look at it from our spiritual eyes.

   Some may not believe this or even like to hear it, but I believe we create our own reality and nothing happens “to us” without our permission on some level. We can feel like victims but this only dis-empowers us. When we see the role we have played (like not trusting our intution or setting boundaries) we are empowered to change, and when we see the role the other has played for us (providing the opportunity for us to develop intuition, boundaries etc.) we can move into a place of forgiveness and truly shift unhealthy patterns and relationships into healthy ones (which either means the relationship will shift or end).

   It doesn’t work if we just blame the other and wait for them to change. We have to take responsibility for being in this type of relationship and do our own soul searching and healing work.

   Gini
10. Audrey says:

    September 25, 2009 at 10:23 am

    Laurie,

    I am one of those spouses who never dreamed that my husband would cheat.

    As crazy as it sounds, I didn’t know it was cheating until I found out about the secrets and lies.

    As crazy as it sounds now, I trusted him until that point.

    And I was devastated.

    Now that my self esteem is better, I know that I did not do anything to cause him to cheat or to continue to cause him to flirt inappropriately. Those are his issues and choices, not mine.

    Part of my recovery has been learning to trust my feelings. I know that my husband’s truly innocent flirtation ( which can be and often is with attractive women who don’t cause that “spark” in him) which he does frequently, makes me laugh, along with everyone else in hearing range. I know that my husband’s not so “harmless flirtation” which he does very occasionally and very specifically, makes me feel anxious and inadequate and unhappy. And no one else, except the subject of this flirtation, is laughing. And I had talked to my husband on many occasions about these feelings, in the process of our joint counseling. And both he and the counselor suggested that I was sensitive about this(I was and am) and the counselor said that my feelings were my issue, and that how he behaved was his choice. I stepped back and thought about it and realized that she was absolutely right. My husband did acknowledge my feelings about this subject, but didn’t agree that this flirtation difference existed, or that even if it did, that it was a problem. I had every reason to believe that it would happen again, but hoped right up until it happened again…that it wouldn’t.

    I don’t see our interactions/choices as a self-fullfilling prophecy or law of attraction, although I was happy to consider those options since you presented them:)

    I see them being based on a lack of trust from a recent infidelity.

    Thank you so much for your time and thoughts, I have appreciated them!
    Audrey
11. Laurie Pawlik-Kienlen says:

    September 25, 2009 at 6:42 am

    I have to admit that I laughed out loud when you said “do his horse laugh” — I could SO picture it!

    I’m very intrigued with the idea of bringing cab fare and planning to leave if hubby flirts with another woman. I think it’s a good idea in many ways, but keep thinking about how our expectations influence what happens around us.

    Have you heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy in psychology, or the law of attraction in new age-y type stuff?

    Both theories – self-fulfilling prophecies and the law of attraction – state that when you believe a certain thing will happen, you subconsciously and consciously act in ways that cause that event to happen (simply stated).

    I am NOT saying that anyone here is causing a partner to cheat or flirt….I’m just wondering how a wife’s expectations that her husband will cheat affects his behavior — or her perception of his behavior.

    Just something to think about — again, I don’t believe that partners cause other partners to cheat. I think physical and emotional infidelity is totally a choice the cheater makes….but I also believe we can influence what happens around us.

    That said, many women (and men) never DREAMED their spouse would cheat, and are then crushed when it happens. Obviously they weren’t acting in ways that caused their partner to cheat. So I don’t know how the law of attraction or a self-fulfilling prophecy would work in that case. Maybe it’s a simple as the fact that not all laws are applicable to all cases all the time.

    That’s why I like the idea of counseling: a trained professional can help us objectively see our own thoughts and behaviors, and help us be healthier and happier. Sometimes I think we’re too close to the problem to help ourselves.

    Lee — you’re no dummy, you’re just doing the best you can! You made your best choices at the time, and now you’re ready to try different choices and different ways of responding to your hubby — good for you. That’s what we do: live and learn.

    Audrey — I agree with Lee, you do sound very together. I’m so glad you’re sharing your insights and experiences!

    Laurie
12. Lee says:

    September 24, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    Audrey,
    That’s so intersting to hear you say that you left the situation, because that’s just what I felt I wanted to do. I was in the middle of this golf course, like a sitting duck in a golf cart, watching him be charming and do his horse laugh and I was so mad. I felt trapped like a rat.

    But your suggestion of removing yourself from the situation and not being a passive participant is not a bad idea. Esp if one discusses this in advance in a rational way.

    I will mull that one over.

    You sound so together. When I am faced with a situation I get so upset that I am immobilized with frustration for a while. I now wish I had said something to him a lot earlier and not waited for the situation to go away. He percieved my silence as tacit approval. And now I feel like a dummy for silently observing his actions for so long.

    Being able to remove myself from a bad situation would make me feel empowered.

    Thanks for your comments.

    Lee
13. Audrey says:

    September 24, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    Lee,
    After the emotional affair was out in the open and we were in counseling, I told him that if there was another occasion where I thought that he was flirting inappropriately, I would simply get up and leave and that he would know the reason because I was telling him in advance, just in case….and that he was NOT to follow me or find me or call me, he should just continue whatever he was doing and have a good time, making whatever choices he wanted to. And that when we saw each other again, I did not wish to speak to him about it, that my choosing to leave and this conversation that we were having ahead “just in case” would say everything I wanted to say.
    My bottom line is that I told him I was not participating in his inappropriate( in a committed relationship) flirting ever again. I told him I could not control his behavior, only mine, and I chose not to participate by observing silently, and had already told him how this behavior made me feel.
    A couple of months ago, we were at dinner with a few people who worked for another company from out of town and one of the reps was someone that he obviously had a “spark” with and that was obvious to me and I am sure, to her. I got up and excused myself and told everyone that unfortunately, I was going to have to leave early and that it was nice to meet them, gave my husband a peck on the cheek and left. I took the car, but made sure I had cab money ahead of time, in case I decided to go that route.
    . He did let me know later how anxious this made him, even knowing ahead of time, and I have not seen any behavior like that since. He made an appointment for his therapy shortly after that “to figure this out.”
    I am not suggesting that you do this….just that whatever you do, be consistent with your values and respect yourself and whatever happens in terms of his choices, it’s okay:)

    Laurie, thanks for your supportive comments and you too, Lee. Laurie was right….it’s all good:)
    Audrey
14. Lee says:

    September 24, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    Hi Audrey and Laurie,

    Well, I did confront my husband about the “drink cart girl” and he was silent and walked out of the room. Came back in about 5 minutes later and sat down and said, “I’m sorry, sorry for embarassing you.”

    I was dumbfounded. I had said nothing about him embarassing me…but that’s what he got out of the confrontation. So I explained one more time why I felt hurt when he flirted and he said he kind of noticed that something was wrong last weekend, that’s why he only bought one drink from her. And then proceeded to magnanimously tell me how this weekend will be different and he can’t wait to show me. And that he really did see that he hurt me after he saw a “look on my face” this past weekend when the girl came by. Although he never brought this up until I confronted him.

    Well, duh. After a direct confrontation, if he is unable to change his behaciour toward another woman we really have problems.

    And we are supposedly done with therapy. What I am learning is that he has not learned why he does this at all! Audrey your comment about “when he feels a “spark” he should recognize it, acknowledge it, and NOT act on it, and that means avoiding initiating or returning flirtatious behavior with a woman that he finds attractive, and instead focus on you” is just exactly what he needs to do. When I asked why he felt okay to engage in his flirtations, he couldn’t tell me and evaded the question. He clearly doesn’t get it yet.

    I can see that he is trying to some degree to think of us more closely bonded. But that’s when we are alone together. It’s his relationships with other women is where the test is! And he didn’t get it.

    I am going to suggest that we head back for another session.

    I need one for sure but I would like both of us to go back to talk about this. Without his understanding his behavior we are in danger of another infidelity…

    Thank you so much for your comments.

    Audrey I hope your situaion works out for you. I took took off my wedding band and only recently put it back on-after 4 months. I think that my husband got comfortable and went right back to his old habits. Maybe without even realizing it, because he is not in touch with why he behaves with other women like he does.

    I feel a bit exasperrated.

    Lee
15. Audrey says:

    September 24, 2009 at 11:18 am

    Lee,
    I think you have every right to be upset about your husband’s “harmless flirtation” with the woman he sees at golf. While there certainly is such a thing as harmless flirtation, that isn’t it. Any time someone in a committed relationship is flirting with someone they find attractive for more than a few minutes, disappointed when they aren’t there or when they leave, and looking forward to seeing them and flirting with the same person AGAIN…..that isn’t harmless in my opinion, for anyone, and especially not for someone who has had a previous emotional affair. Even if he never has any contact with her otherwise, he is spending his time thinking about her in a way that detracts from you and your relationship and it may lower the bar for another emotional affair.
    This is what my husband did in between his emotional affairs ( I didn’t see that behavior in the 6 years that I knew him prior to his first emotional affair), and this is one of the issues he is trying to figure out now in therapy. He now looks back and admits that is how all three emotional affairs started….”harmless flirtation” with someone he was attracted to and looking forward to seeing them the next time and continuing the flirtation.His therapist has told him that when he feels a “spark” he should recognize it, acknowledge it, and NOT act on it, and that means avoiding initiating or returning flirtatious behavior with a woman that he finds attractive, and instead focus on you. My thoughts are with you:)

    Audrey

    \
16. Laurie Pawlik-Kienlen says:

    September 24, 2009 at 7:12 am

    Audrey,

    Thank you for sharing your story — what a long journey for your marriage! You’re in such a healthy place: accepting that whatever will be, will be….and you’ll be happy either way.

    I wish you all the best, and hope you return to let us know which direction your marriage is going in next (staying married? divorcing and going your own ways?).

    Either way, it’s all good (and bad — because that’s what life is, right? Bittersweet).

    Laurie
17. Audrey says:

    September 23, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    I have been married for 25 years. Our oldest daughter was born 2 years into the marriage and shortly after, my husband had his first “emotional affair”, although I didn’t know that’s what it was at the time. It was with a woman at work who was assigned to work with him for only a month. He came home every day and told me what she said, what she wore, etc, and it was obvious that he was obsessed with her. I was very hurt and he told me that he loved me, that he married me, that he had a baby with me, and that none of that meant anything.”We’re just friends.” I believed him because I wanted to and honestly thought he had listened to me and understood this was wrong for me/us and backed off from the relationship. She was off rotation soon thereafter and that was in the days before personal phones, texts, emails and there was no further contact.
    Fast forward to 7 years and 3 more children later. He became interested in a married woman that he worked with one or two days a week and who also lived 2 blocks away from us. Again, I knew it was wrong and recognized his interest and talked to him about it.His response”We’re just friends.” I asked him to stop the relationship as it existed because it was hurtful to me. He accused me of just wanting to” take away his fun.”As far as I knew, they never saw each other outside of work, and this lasted 5 or 6 years, until she started working in a different area. I never thought they would have a physical affair or break up their existing marriages for each other, but knew that she took a lot of time and thought and energy away from our kids and from me.Again, he told me that he loved me, married me, had babies with me. Again, I believed it, but had to talk myself into it.
    Last year I noticed that he was more withdrawn and distant and I could not connect to him even in small ways anymore. Over a period of 9 months, I started to think about a life without him more and more.I told him I was lonely, unhappy, didn’t feel married and he just started with the “but I love you” stuff. And by this time, I didn’t really believe it. I couldn’t talk myself into it anymore. Then on a Sunday morning while I was near his Iphone, a text popped up( texts don’t have to be opened with an Iphone, they are just instantly visible) from a woman I had never heard of asking him if he was free for coffee that morning because she “really needed it.” I reviewed his other texts and emails at that point and found out that she was a woman he worked with and not even the woman that he was serious about, he was just flirting with her. He had a relationship with another woman he had met on a trip to China 9 months previously and seen on two more trips in that time period. I know there was no sex involved because of her communications, not because I would have believed anything he told me at that point. There were no overt “I love yous”, but lots of miss you, wish you were here, I can just hear your voice in my head, I think about all of our wonderful conversations and time together, etc.
    I never thought this man would keep secrets and lie to me, and I realized at the moment that I found that out that a weight was gone from my shoulders because now I knew that I didn’t have to live like this anymore. And at the same time, I was absolutely devastated. I told him that I knew about these two women without any details and that I was not going to divide my life up anymore with women’s names: the Beth time, the Lori time, the Jamie time, etc. I told him then that I would be happy on my own or someday with a man who made a real commitment to me, and didn’t need “just friends.” I realized how much my self esteem had suffered living with this/him. Even between women, he didn’t make me or our relationship a priority.I made an appointment with a marriage counselor and he wanted to come and work on things and did. He broke off contact with the other women ( but did ask me a couple of times if he could write to the woman in China”as a friend.” ) The answer was that it was his choice, I only cared about knowing about it so that I could make decisions about my life and would. The counseling started off okay, she got him to admit that he had an emotional affair and that was difficult for him. He minimized everything, and said she “wasn’t important.” That hurt a lot…..to be less important than someone who wasn’t important and also to try and get him to tell the truth, he didn’t admit to anything I didn’t already know. And I had not told him I read the emails, much like Hank from earlier this summer. The worst thing was that my husband is a charming, charismatic, intelligent, funny, man who ends up charming/manipulating everyone, including the therapist. It very soon turned into, you are too needy, he’s just a flirtatious personality, it’s okay if he doesn’t help you around the house, he’s a busy and important man, maybe you should see a counselor, he’s stopped communicating with other women, there’s really nothing wrong with him, you expect too much from him etc.
    I read Hank’s note and that was SO helpful. Thank you, Hank! I acknowledged what I had already done.
    1) Grieved over the death of a man I thought I knew
    2) Grieved over a marriage that was dead, too.
    3) Decided that the two of us had to figure out who the other was and see if we wanted to continue a relationship of any kind and then rebuild.
    4) Decided I did not want to stay married to him, because I thought this is always going to be an issue.
    5) He decided, on his own, to see an individual therapist and start working on some of his own issues, including why he needs these relationships and how not to need that.
    6) Acknowledged my role in allowing our relationship to continue through those years the way it was, and allowing myself to be treated in a way that was not acceptable to me.
    7) Given up control over something I never had any control over……and it was absolutely liberating.

    We are still together for now, as long as he is working on these issues.Because he says he “really loves me” and now it’s starting to feel like he is backing that up with behavior, that it’s not just words. I don’t know how the relationship will work out. I took off my wedding ring the day I found out about the “secrets”. If this relationship works out and we stay married, I will be happy because I know now what I want and need. If this relationship doesn’t work out and we divorce, I will be happy. As far as I’m concerned, our story is already a success story.
18. Lee says:

    September 22, 2009 at 9:43 am

    Hi Laurie,
    You know, you have really hit the nail on the head. Months or years from now, when we are really whole, this might not bother me. But right now it does!

    And it did take him a long time to get the “emotional cheating” thing. He initially went to therapy to placate me and to get help from the counselor on how to deal with his emotionally overwrought wife. Four months later, he got that it wasn’t about helping me not be upset but about his actions in the first place.

    And I have been saving this hurt for a few weeks now and it IS building up.

    I will definately bring up the issue at the right time and place. Something like, “When you are being super friendly to the young lady at the golf course, it makes me feel anxious and upset. We are healing from an emotionally cheating situation and your bevavior, whether I am present our not, makes me feel uncomfortable and is hurtful.”
    Something like that. Because that’s the truth and his behavior with her is beyond being a little annoying.

    He tips her well, so she come around frequently too! ugh
    I guess I would too if I was single and looking to make a living.

    But thanks again. Your helpful advice and understanding comforts my weary soul.

    Lee
19. Laurie Pawlik-Kienlen says:

    September 22, 2009 at 8:18 am

    Lee,

    I don’t think you’re a dope at all — and I’m surprised that your husband is behaving this way!

    Actually, I take that back…your husband is totally oblivious to how his behavior with other women affects you. He didn’t realize the effects of his emotional cheating — it took some time for him to realize the damage, didn’t it? I’m not trying to criticize him; I’m just saying that he’s not terribly aware of how his interactions with women affect you.

    I suspect he just doesn’t realize how hurt you are by his “innocent flirting.” I suspect he thinks he’s just being nice and friendly and having fun with her — and since you’re right there, he thinks that you know that there’s no way anything could happen.

    Your husband isn’t unusual: most men are oblivious! Generally speaking, they just don’t pick up on the same things women do, and they don’t realize how their behavior or words can affect women.

    I think it’d be a mistake to ignore your husband’s behavior. You’ll just get angrier and more resentful, and it’ll reach the boiling point: you’ll explode or react in a hugely emotional way to something little, like the toilet seat up (because you’re really angry about the flirting).

    I suggest picking a time to talk about how you feel. Calmly and rationally describe exactly what you did here: tell him how his behavior makes you feel. You don’t have to accuse him of flirting or doing anything wrong. Just say “I feel X when you do X.” And you might even tell him that in 20 or even 5 years, it wouldn’t matter if he flirts a little….but right now you and he are rebuilding trust and reconnecting, so his behavior is key to helping you two bond again.

    A related option is to have this conversation in front of your counselor (you said you were done with couples counseling, but there’s nothing wrong with a “quickie”!). Having this conversation in front of a counselor will help you express yourself objectively and rationally, and will also give you and your husband an outside perspective. And, you’ll learn how to initiate and resolve difficult conversations.

    I wish you all the best — and remember, this is a normal part of being married! Misunderstandings, miscommunications, misbehaviors happen all the time. The trick is knowing what to let go and what to challenge (which you were wondering about). I believe that anything that makes you feel fearful, embarrassed, anxious, or uncomfortable should be challenged. Things that just make you feel annoyed or frustrated could be let go…..but I don’t think there’s any clear cut rules! It totally depends on each marriage and situation — and you’re coming from a “we’re healing from emotional cheating” situation, which makes his behavior with other women a key to your marriage.

    I hope this helps a little….ALSO — it’s normal to take great strides forward and then deal with minor setbacks now and then. That’s what healing is all about!

    Best wishes,
    Laurie
20. Lee says:

    September 22, 2009 at 6:28 am

    Hi Laurie,
    Well, we are done with couples therapy, had a good vacation, and my husband is really trying to earn back my trust.

    However,…I am not sure if I am being overly sensitive, but we play golf on weekends. But here’s the deal, the girl who serves drinks on the course, who is absolutely gorgeous, comes to visit with us and my husband all but falls over himself when she is around. Misses drives, buys way too many drinks when he otherwise wouldn’t, notices when she is not there, and lets her know the next time we go out to play a round that he missed her etc. He flirts and makes me so uncomfortable.It’s all done in front of me so I think he thinks its okay, but it is not.

    Should I confront this or just let it go…

    I feel so badly because we were making great strides and now this petty flirtation that gets under my skin.

    Please don’t think I’m a dope but it does make me feel badly….
    Lee
21. Laurie Pawlik-Kienlen says:

    August 26, 2009 at 8:58 am

    I totally second what Everydaymatters said, Cynthia!

    You said you “just met” — how long has it been? I’d stick with dating him without talking about marriage, for at least a year. Give him time to get divorced and move on from that marriage before leaping into another one.

    And, if his relationship with his “business partner” is bothering you now, it will likely only get worse. If he can’t cut his ties to her, then you’ll either have to live with it or decide that it’s not worth it.

    Laurie
22. Everydaymatters says:

    August 26, 2009 at 7:08 am

    Cynthia, I would think twice about marrying this man. He’s not even divorced yet. Did your relationship start while he was still with his wife? If he cheated on her, he will cheat on you as well. This “business partner” sounds like more than business to me.
23. Cynthia Harris says:

    August 25, 2009 at 10:47 pm

    My fiance has a relationship with a so call business partner. He met her during his previous marriage 4 years ago. However, we just met and he expresses desires to marry me when his divorce is final. He claims she is a business partner of his but she loans him money and they talk all the time on the phone. When she calls he is totally into to her conversation and I’m tired of it.
24. JayM says:

    August 19, 2009 at 2:49 am

    I am in love with my bestfriend although i am already committed. I am always seen with him 5 days a week bec. he’s my co-worker than with my partner which is once a week only. Surely absence makes the heart go fonder, but what will you do if you fall for your bestfriend whom you always see at work? To make matters worst, he just got a partner. To make matters even worst than what it is, we secretly became emotionally intimate at some time within my relationship with my partner and before he’s been recently committed to someone. Now, I find myself brokenhearted bec. my bestfriend has someone he can fully call his own. I’m jealous bec. his time is now dedicated to his new partner. I know before he was willing to be my second but he realized his worth that he can’t be second best for anyone his entire life. he waited all these years for me eventhough he knows that i can’t leave my first bec. i love him, too. but my bestfriend promised me that nothing’s gonna change between us, ever. I know this is the most selfish story you’ve heard, but i am really confused! I wanted so badly to move on and concentrate on my first but i am afraid to lose my bestfriend who occupies most of my mind, or i am just afraid that his feelings for me will change?
25. Laurie Pawlik-Kienlen says:

    July 28, 2009 at 6:27 pm

    Hi Theresa,

    You need to decide what you can and can’t live with in your marriage — nobody can or should tell you if you should stay married to your husband or not! It’s too big and personal a decision.

    If you do stay married, then you have to expect that he won’t change. You have to accept him the way he is right now, emotional affairs and all. It doesn’t sound like this marriage has been very healthy for you…and few people would suggest staying in a situation that isn’t healthy.

    I suggest you talk to a counselor – especially if you’re struggling with anxiety disorders and feelings of hopelessness. A counselor will help you see your marriage and husband more objectively. I also suggest asking your husband if he’ll go to couples counseling with you.

    Here’s a link to an article I wrote recently, called “7 Ways to Tell if Your Marriage is Over” — it might help!

    http://theadventurouswriter.com/blog/quipstipsachievinggoals/love-relationships/7-ways-to-tell-if-your-marriage-is-over/

    I wish you all the best,
    Laurie